Episode Summary
In a generic sense, everyone knows that politics is about power. But when you look at how America’s two major parties use the power that they have, there’s no question whatsoever that Republicans understand power politics while Democrats have a much more passive attitude toward it.
This has been true since at least 1964 when a dedicated group of reactionaries took over the Republican party and installed their extremist candidate Barry Goldwater and proceeded to systematically cancel and remove anyone who stood in their way. Now during the second administration of Donald Trump, his extremist administration is pulling all the levers of power it can to cancel budgets, cancel people, and threaten anyone who stands in its way.
In response, congressional Democratic leaders have mostly resorted to writing strongly worded letters which obviously isn’t cutting it. But what can be done?
Karen Attiah, my guest on today’s episode has been thinking and writing a lot about power and why it’s necessary to protect freedom. And she has direct experience at what actual canceling looks like, having been fired from the Washington Post for accurately quoting the late right-wing activist Charlie Kirk. This came after she had a course canceled by Columbia University following her speaking out against Israel's genocide in Gaza and in favor of racial equality.
Since the Columbia incident, Karen has started Resistance Summer School, a new effort to teach the history of democratic rights movements, the very class that Columbia was too afraid to continue.
And since being fired by the Post, Karen will be redoubling her writing efforts on Substack, so be sure to subscribe. This is the exactly correct response to authoritarianism. Dictatorship is not inevitable, but it wants you to think that it is. The American people did not stand for Disney’s suspension of its late-night host Jimmy Kimmel, and after millions of people canceled their subscriptions, it had to reinstate him.
We have the power to do great things, but only if we use it.
Important Note: Our conversation was recorded September 10, 2025, before Kirk was shot at a public event in Utah and so we do not discuss her reaction to it.
The video of this episode is available, the transcript is below. Because of its length, some podcast apps and email programs may truncate it. Access the episode page to get the full text. You can subscribe to Theory of Change and other Flux podcasts on Apple Podcasts, Spotify, Amazon Podcasts, YouTube, Patreon, Substack, and elsewhere.
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Audio Chapters
00:00 — Introduction
10:30 — Universities' lost touch with the people is why many keep folding to authoritarianism
16:48 — The political right understands what power can do much better than the political left
22:01 — How living in Texas made Karen not suppose that reactionaries were serious about their ideas
31:01 — Liberals stopped explaining their ideas in an easy to understand way
39:18 — Democratic and other left leaders underestimate the power of religious community and knowing
47:09 — The personal, cult magnetism of Donald Trump
52:23 — There's little need to reach out to right-wing leaders, but some of their followers can be persuaded
59:56 — Fascism isn't inevitable, but to stop it, you mus have vision and a realization that power matters
Audio Transcript
The following is a machine-generated transcript of the audio that has not been proofed. It is provided for convenience purposes only.
MATTHEW SHEFFIELD: So you've got a number of interesting things you are doing lately, but one of them is you've got a class that was canceled by the actual cancel culture of Donald Trump from Columbia University that you are teaching independently now. So why don't we start off with you telling us about that.
KAREN ATTIAH: Sure. Yeah. It's been such a wild time on so many, in so many levels. Yeah, probably most people might know me as a journalist and a columnist and editor for, the Washington Post, but deep down inside have always wanted to teach. I've always wanted to be an academic. Actually, I ended up a journalist, but but yeah, most people might not know.
My background is actually in international affairs, so I went to Columbia as a graduate student and wanted to basically like work in the UN or World Bank or maybe, diplomatic service, that sort of thing. But that experience really made me question a lot about our systems, particularly our international affairs development systems.
And while I was a grad student at Columbia School [00:04:00] for International and Public Affairs, I definitely questioned like, wait a second. Why aren't we learning anything about how race intersects with development and how we see the world, how people relate to one another?
And I definitely was aware that what we were being taught was a very, very, very, not only Western centric, but a very kind of American centric view of the world. And I was going to school with people from all over the world. So I just saw that as a gap. And so ever since then, I was like, man, I would love to be able to teach.
What I didn't get taught as a student, so probably in the pandemic. Yeah. Columbia was like, Hey would you teach specifically with the School of International Public Affairs was like, Hey, would you like to come teach? And I, I kind of did the Heisman on him, kept them at arms distance for a little bit because I, I was like, I'm not ready yet. I'm not ready yet. I'm not ready.
But I was working on a syllabus on race and journalism. So I developed a syllabus for about two years or so before I finally said yes. Before I said yes to the dress, I guess, and decided to teach in 2020 for the spring of 2024. So a bit of context to that. I decided to come up with a course that explicitly looked at the development of kind of our ideas about race. Like all the way from. So 12th and 13th centuries to today, right? And looking at how this has always been a mediated process. So part of how, at a very basic level, how we develop ideas about who is us and who is them, who is like us and who is not, is through what we read, what we watch through photographs, all that stuff.
So I basically explained to my students particularly when it comes to American media development of American media, that there's always been a link [00:06:00] between the relationship particularly of white colonists and European colonists and settlers with writing about non-whites without including them.
And there's, there's evidence and, and really great work done about how. These early colonial papers actually made a lot of money pedaling stereotypes basically. So I ask a lot of my students, I'm like, huh, this sounds familiar, right? So fast forward a couple of months, of course went well and over-enrolled great reviews.
And then I got a text message saying that my class was not going to be renewed for 2025. And obviously I was crushed. I mean, I never quite got a reason actually, whether it was. I mean, my costs over enrolled. I was also quite vocal about what I saw as Israel's assault on Palestinians during the time of the encampments and the protests that were happening at Columbia.
So, and just in general, Matthew, I mean, I, I think I knew I, I cover race, I write about race. I've written about the attacks on critical white race theory and anti DEI, all of these sort of bogeyman attacks on anyone teaching about, and in particular the history of different racial groups. So I think I always kind of had a, I don't know, a bit of a, a, a, not a cloud per se, but just an, an awareness of the political climate, even at a place like Columbia.
Right. I'd covered. Anti CRT efforts in Texas, in Oklahoma. And in my, the back of my mind, I think I always knew they're going to try to push this campaign all the way to the [00:08:00] top. And of course, as we've seen, it's reached the Ivys, right? So I think yeah, they canceled the costs. I was told to be quiet about it basically.
So I sat on it for a couple of months, didn't say anything. People were like, you're going to hurt your career. Do you want to teach again? Don't, just wait, wait it out. And, then I saw, after Trump's victory and then I saw the attacks on DEI, I saw the, the pressure on campuses to basically, stop any programs on diversity, on DEI stop, anything that could be considered anti-white, basically, if we're going to be--
SHEFFIELD: Or pro Palestinian. Yeah.
ATTIAH: Or pro-Palestinian. All of that to me is connected. I don't see these things as, separate issues at all. So yeah, earlier this spring, I just was like, wait, why am I sitting around waiting for permission to basically do, at the heart of what teaching is, me talking to a group of people, like at the heart of it, it's like we all teaching and education is, is just gathering a group of listeners, having a speaker and transmitting, communicating to them.
And I'm like, I don't need telling me to do that. I, I can gather people under a tree, like, like, so yeah, I put it on in Bluesky., Would anybody be interested in, in taking this version of this course? And honestly, I would've been happy with 20 people. I would've been happy with 30 people.
And something like. Two or 3000 people responded. So I was like, okay, we're onto something. And just kept pulling, on the threads, put out an interest form. People were really willing to actually sign up, willing to actually, and, and what I did was offered on a sliding scale because part of the, I think injustice of what I saw even teaching is just not only are people going into crushing debt, right, to be able to [00:10:00] afford an Ivy League education, particularly in a shaky job market.
But then adjuncts or a lot of people may not know is a lot of them are paid basically poverty wages and have no protections, no sort of, benefits, right? I've met adjuncts who can barely pay their rents, but they're teaching at these elite institutions that are trading off of their. Knowledge and their labor in order to power the whole thing.
So for me, I was--
SHEFFIELD: They can certainly afford to pay better.
Universities' lost touch with the people is why many keep folding to authoritarianism
ATTIAH: Yeah. Right. I mean, and that's, the thing. I mean, a lot of people have probably seen the news about how big the endowments of these universities are and and how much they have in real estate. And it's just like, this doesn't make sense. At the heart of it is people who want to share knowledge and other people who want to receive it.
But it's, as I said before, it's, it's almost like. And these institutions have become credentialist institutions that are hedge funds with a side of education. Right. So for me, I think it was an interesting experiment in jailbreaking that and saying, well, what if people didn't have to go into lifelong debt?
And what if, as an instructor you could actually support yourself by going outside and kind of cutting out the middleman to an extent. And yeah. So we did our first class. 500 people sold out in 48 hours. We were able to do, we were able to give people scholarships and stuff. And yeah, it's been such a cool, such a cool experience.
And I guess for me it's been freeing that I don't have to worry about. Some, administrator getting a chilling letter from the Department of Education or the Department of Justice and being investigated for teaching wokeness or that I can freely teach and provide a space for people about Israel Palestine because people are really hungry for that sort of, not only knowledge, but a space to be able to ask questions.
So yeah, it's been [00:12:00] such a, it's birthing something out of, community outta cancellation has been, has been my thought. And, for me, like I said, I just. Seeing people? Well, it's cool that people actually really want to go back to school. I have readings of a syllabus, I have guest speakers and everything.
But it's also just really cool to see people make friends, make connections, make like, just like in school, like meet new people. It's so hard to do that after you've left school. So many of us have, we're busy with our jobs and busy with our family. So I do this on Zoom, right? And I let people either watch on Zoom and then watch the recordings when they can.
So I try to just make it as easy and accessible to people as possible. So. Yeah, it's been a lot of work, that's for sure. But it's definitely, I'd hope, provide a model of that. We don't have to take a lot of this lying down, and that there's no reason that, we should be banned from speaking to one another.
And about history and about telling people, particularly when it comes to media, and particularly when it comes to, race. I tell my students a lot of times, I'm like, look, like I didn't learn this in school. Some of this stuff I did not learn until I was a journalist. So you shouldn't feel ashamed or guilty.
You didn't, we're all taking remedial history. Yeah. So, and it doesn't matter how many degrees you have, I have PhDs in my class, I have people with master's degrees. The youngest student is 17, the oldest student is almost 80. Right. So, this is just something that everyone, everyone should know. I, I teach about the league of Nations in Woodrow Wilson and the attempt by Japan to introduce a racial equality clause at the beginning of the League of Nations, and how that was rejected actually in 1919.
And for a lot of people, they're like, how do we [00:14:00] not know this? How do we not know that, that there was this effort that this was, actually a huge, huge deal for the quote unquote colored peoples of the worlds and the west just ignored it. Right. So it's a lot of that, it's a lot of unearthing history that we all, I think, should have known.
But if I get the chance to reach more people this way before I was teaching 20 people, now I'm teaching 500. Then to me that's a win. So,
Yeah.
SHEFFIELD: Yeah. No, and that's, it is a, great way to, to get, make something good out of something bad that was done and, and there's a, have you ever thought about that there's a, bit of a parallel, although talk about structural inequality between what you are doing and what Barry Wes is doing?
ATTIAH: I, it's so funny you said that. I think I just posted on Bluesky about her not only Free Press, but they're setting up, what is it? The, the, setup of the University of Austin, that kind of weirdo university, which is not too far from me, two and a half hours away from me. And I, I, I did think about that, right?
Like, to an extent it was cool that the announcement that I made went viral to an extent about creating this out of Columbia. But I, I think, and I write and I speak all the time about the asymmetries of resources and funding when it comes to the right and the left or liberals and stuff. So, Barry Weiss being able to corral millions upon millions of dollars.
me not so much. Literal millionaires. And so I'm also just like, and it's, it's, not to complain, but more so as just an observation that here is someone who, and I don't know, maybe, maybe I need to learn her dark arts and I should study [00:16:00] her instead of complaining, but rather it's, so stark to me that, she was able to corral the resources and funding to be able to do something like that. Whereas, I'm doing this still largely on my own and very much grassroots supported. So, and again, it's not just me, but I'm sure you've saw the kerfluffle over liberal influencers receiving money for for promoting kind of, or not even promoting, but rather just receiving monies, receiving $8,000 a month, some of them.
And meanwhile, again, Bari Weiss, reportedly, we'll see what makes out of, but reportedly being offered hundreds of millions of dollars to be absorbed into CBS.
The political right understands what power can do much better than the political left
ATTIAH: So it's just sort of, I mean, I can whine or we can whine about. The right and they're doing this and doing that. But I've seen firsthand, particularly in my own reporting in, in Texas, that they put their money where their mouth is literally, literally. I'm seeing how millions of dollars gets poured into school board elections gets put into folks like Bari Weiss and these podcasters, and they seem to actually, maybe they actually, actually, the right believes in what they're doing, so much so that they're willing to fund it.
So there are times when I'm like, does the left believe in what they're doing? Right? What's the, what's the starkest, what's the best way to show that you're committed to something which is putting resources and cash behind it? And until the left sort of works that out I'm not sure how we match what the right is doing. We have to stop being afraid of power, right? And not, and not just like moral victories and not just, but actual, you need cash, you need [00:18:00] organizing power.
You need discipline. It's not enough just to be right. It also, you also have to be resourced and organized. And it's something that like fills me with dismay. Like when people seem to think that if you care about. Human rights or if you care about social justice there's this self-defeating narrative that like, you'll never make money doing it, it'll never work.
We're supposed to be scraping for pennies all the time, and I'm just like, I don't think that helps our side. Martin Luther King, all of these people understood and believed in power. You have to have that in order to advance your values and in order to persuade people effectively of your vision.
Without that, then, then you'll lose. Anyway, that's just me.
SHEFFIELD: Yeah. Well, you're, yeah, no, that's a really, important point. And I think you're right that in the broader left, it's not something that people. Get because, like I, and I, I think in some ways they took the wrong lessons from the civil rights movement because the civil rights movement was a multi-pronged political movement that not only were they just out there, protesting in the street, stop mistreating us.
They were also seeking political power. They were running candidates, they were endorsing people, they were giving money to candidates. They were, putting people into, getting people into the, into judgeships. Like they were pushing at all levels of political power in American society.
And it wasn't just simply, please stop being mean to us. Please stop hurting us. And obviously, that was important to let people know that this was happening. But if, all you're doing is saying, please stop hurting us, you're not going to [00:20:00] win.
ATTIAH: You are not going to win. And like it or not, we're in this sort of. Political apparatus where largely there are two parties, and I don't think about this as only a, a, an electoral politics issue. But that being said, regardless whether it's putting more money towards a media apparatus whether it's thinking through, how do we actually build better institutions, right?
I mean, that's not explicitly politics, but it is political. you need resources and you need power. And and people I have these conversations with, people who seem to think that power is bad, power is neutral. It depends on how you--
SHEFFIELD: what you do it.
ATTIAH: It's what, it's what you make, it's what you make of it.
It's like, anyone who likes superhero movies or comics aren't like, oh my gosh, Superman is bad 'cause he has power. Like he used it to help save cities, even if it's flawed or whatnot, any of the heroes, right? Like so, I just, I think about these things. I think about these things a lot and it will require a lot of people to have like, almost like very personal kind of relation, like conversations with themselves about like their own narratives about power and why they think they don't deserve it or shouldn't have it.
And 'cause the right definitely thinks they should, whether it's divine power. Some of like, plenty of them are motivated by literally God told them to do this and so this is what we're going to do. Or again, some sort of deep seated. Conviction that this is the world you want to live in, and in order to build that, you need power.
So we'll see.[00:22:00]
How living in Texas made Karen not suppose that reactionaries were serious about their ideas
SHEFFIELD: Yeah. Well, and yeah, that's, it is a really good point. And, I, and we were talking before this, I, think that part of why you were able to really understand this on such a gut level is that you're from Texas, you're
from Dallas, and you have seen up close for all of your, for so many years of your life that.
You are, that this is what these people want. They want to do terrible things to society. and you've seen that you, saw this coming a long time before. And whereas I think a lot of people in the kind of, commentary of the left or the, and the political operative class and the donor class and the politician class, they don't have direct contact with
right wing extremists the way that you personally have.
And I think that's, part of what, that's a big part of your analysis here. And, and it's also a big part of why they don't understand how to deal with Trump effectively. I think. 'cause when you think about when the Republicans are in the congressional minority. They're still able to cause all sorts of problems.
And including, government shutdowns like hell, they shut down the government when Trump was the president, the congressional Republicans did. So like, and yet that, and the Democrats are not willing to, exercise the, they, they constantly talk about, oh, we have to protect democracy. We have to, this is a national emergency, Trump's a want tobe dictator.
Well, if he's, if that's true and you really believe that, then why aren't you shutting down the government and demanding to protect people's healthcare or, a variety of things like protecting their, vaccines from RK Junior, like, or just demanding the, the restoration of all these funds that were illegally impounded against all these agencies.
Like $500 million stolen from cancer vaccines. Like if Americans knew about that. They [00:24:00] would be really upset, you know, as the, you don't, you're not the president, so you don't have the bully pulpit, but if you shut down the government, people are going to be covering what you have to say.
ATTIAH: Yeah, for sure, I mean, I think there's a lot of things going on in terms of, well, two things. It's like, it's almost sometimes like, not only not believing in your own. Values. So, not being committed in that, but it's almost like a, a, a disbelief that Republicans are going to, or, or conservatives are going to do what they say they're going to do.
And they've been saying that they've wanted to end abortion end abortion access for, what, 50 years almost? Or, or at the very least four, yeah. 40 ish years. And being willing to align with the religious right in order to, achieve that. A lot of this, for a good chunk of America's history, abortion wasn't as salient in issue as it is now.
And that was deliberately. Done through explicit alliances and again, resources, money and them saying, I grew up in these churches and, and the alignment of political figures and the religious anti-abortion kind of movement where ever since I was a kid, they're like, this is what we're going to do.
This is what we're going to do. We are going to overturn Roe v Wade. And it's almost like the left being like, Ugh, that can't happen. Ugh, that can't happen. And I think for me growing up here, growing up in Dallas, where actually where I'm, I am right this second, it's like, are you like why? And it's not just what republicans say they're going to do.
They organize, they give money, they are doing the thing. And so they've been praying for this. And so I think for, for me it's, and [00:26:00] not just praying for this, but altering the rhetorical battlefield, winning the narrative, I suppose, on these issues, having very simplistic narratives about any of their, their issues, right?
And it's very hard. I see up quite often the left either seeding narrative grounds or just simply not believing that these people. We'll do what they want to do. They are willing to play the 50 year game. And I, I, I remember asking even some of my as we were talking beforehand, I, I grew up in the evangelical church.
I was very, very, I was a youth leader, used to play piano for the youth groups was very deeply involved, I'll say that. And I remember, and then I left the church when I was in grad school, actually. And then I remember asking, or, or observing some of my former church friends, like, why, why did they vote for Trump?
And for a lot of them they're like, ah, yeah, we don't really like him. But God's agenda is more important. And on God's agenda ending abortion is what is going to save this country from going to help, basically. So to your point about. Extremism particularly, coming from the Christian, explicitly Christian nationalist right?
Is to them they don't see it as evil. They see it as saving us. Actually, they're doing us a favor. And that trickles into even sort of, and it's hard to understand. I, I know for people who haven't grown up in it. But I think that also extends to even the anti-vaccine stuff that we saw during COVID, the anti masking is, and for sure there are plenty of people who are sadistic and want to use their power to hurt other people and believe that, these people should go to hell.
I've seen that sort of [00:28:00] vitriol, but I've also seen, and this is harder to dislodge the people who actually think they're doing good. So even with the vaccines talking to folks, they think that we who believe in science are the ones who are misguided. They're saying. We are trying to save you from ending your life or affecting your life early because you've been lied to by science.
So it actually is pretty compelling because it seems to come from a deeply sincere place, if that makes sense. Not and it's, again, it's so easy to car caricature these folks as like, ugh, they're just stupid, or they're just ignorant. But. At least from what I've seen, it's like I've seen people who are like, no, no, no, don't, don't pay attention to science.
I I really, I actually want to help you. Here's this other protocol. Because if you do what they say, they'll shorten your life. So, and we, we want to help you. Right? And so it's, a very we're living in extremely different information, completely different information worlds, right? Completely different realities.
And I don't really know exactly how that gets bridged. Unless we come, I don't know. I, think about this a lot, but coming at these things from a place 'cause they're coming at this, it's weird to think about, but they're coming at it from a place of care. Just, it's weird to think about it though, but a
SHEFFIELD: Yeah, a lot of them. I mean now JD Van, somebody like him, I don't think that's what
he's doing,
ATTIAH: No, he's just a craven opportunist who is basically a puppet of Peter Thiel. He has no soul or no convictions, but people like that are able to move. People who do, and again, I won't deny that there's not a streak of destructive nihilism. Right.
SHEFFIELD: And some of them, Yeah.
ATTIAH: And, and, and plenty of them whose, whole [00:30:00] ethos is just own the libs that they would have no sort of reason to be if it wasn't for beating down on who they perceive to be as misguided and weaker and, and annoying them because we talk about.
We think people should not be judged on their pronouns. Like, and we think that black people deserve to vote and have jobs like it's not, there are plenty of racists and there are plenty of bigots and, all of that. But I, it is hard. Yes, there is a destructive streak. And there are not just religious, but even from the sort of tech billionaires who, who don't particularly believe in humanity.
And so, I, I look at these things as being like, are you wanting to fight for a nation that is pro-human or not, basically. But alas, we're not there yet.
Liberals stopped explaining their ideas in an easy to understand way
SHEFFIELD: Yeah. Well, you And that point though about yeah. That a lot of people are kind of motivated by a, an altruism that has not been grounded properly. Like that to me is that it, it hits to a, to a difference between what, why the, that we, should dis make sure on the broader left to distinguish between conservatives and reactionaries.
Like somebody like JD Vance or, or Steve Bannon, or, Steven Miller, like these are reactionaries, they're trying to. Tear down America and put it back to the Well, huh. In some cases, the confederacy, it looks like they Sure. Talk about the Confederate generals a lot now. And, but, but there are people who just have a more conservative moral viewpoint and they think, as you said, you know that they're doing the right thing.
And in a lot of ways, that separation between, them and the, [00:32:00] institutions that the reactionaries are attacking. The reason why there's this gulf, I think, is that for, science stopped trying to explain itself in basic terms. And, in so many of the advances that we've had in society, the people who, who made them forgot to bring along everyone else.
So in the same, and that same thing is true. I think with feminism. You know that a lot of the timism is no threat to men. That having women being able to choose what you want to do with your life, that's also, is means that men should have that choice as well. It doesn't mean that men should not have that choice.
But, and, and that phrase, that famous phrase of that, a woman needs a, a man like a fish needs a bicycle. Well, that also works the other way around, that a man needs a woman the way that a fish needs a bicycle in, in other words, that you are your worth, your, you're worth your own.
You, you don't need somebody to complete you. Your value comes from yourself. But I think in a lot of ways we, kind of stop saying that these kind of first principle arguments, 'cause like, I always see it from people saying, oh, I don't want to, a scientist saying, oh, I don't want to debate some anti-vax person, because if I debate them, then I'll be giving them credibility.
And it's like: these people have millions of followers, like they have more credibility than you. And among, from people who have heard of them, like more people have heard of them than have heard of you. So who really has more credibility now on the science? You obviously you do, but in the public mind they.
ATTIAH: Correct. And I'm glad you said that because I, think right now to, to deal with what's happening is like, it's a battle for the public's mind. And it's, no longer the case that expertise, hidden expertise is enough. If anything, the sort of [00:34:00] hidden expertise makes people in this country sort of feel like, oh, you must have something to hide.
You must not be, but right now look, we're in a fight. We're, we're in a, we're in an absolute war and part of the war for people's minds and imaginations means that people will have to get out there and, explain. I mean, I think in terms of, And builds like I said, like bring people together, those podcasters or whoever, those people with audiences hate 'em all you want, and we'll see where the podcast economy goes or, and all that.
But like, what they've basically done is they've been able to bring people together through their audience and, organize them and, and bring them back from day to day or week to week or whatnot. So this notion that you can just stay above the fray means that you're, yeah, you're seeding the imagination battleground to others.
And I think there's a bit of, I think particularly on the left, and I'm not trying to bash the left, I've just been thinking about this a lot. 'cause again, I just think about like, what does it take to. Deal with this, to survive this. At the very basic, some of us are literally just trying to survive all of this.
Other people, who, who might be less targeted right now should be thinking about these things. But it's this question of not only like what are you willing, what are you willing to do, what are you willing to, put your time and energy and resources into? But it's we're going to have to stop wanting to be perfect right now.
I think there's a lot of, almost like perfectionism and purity. And again, caveat, caveat, I don't, certain things I don't believe are. Purity test. Personally, I think when it comes to people literally living or dying [00:36:00] whether it's in Gaza or whether it's people whose lives are being torn apart and broken by ice and you say, okay, like this candidate is supporting these things.
Like, I personally don't see people being blown apart as, and caring about that as a purity test. But that being said people are going to have to learn to work with people and engage with people that they don't like. And I'm not, again, I'm not saying to engage with people who want to kill you because that's kind of different, but but it's just like, what does it look like to act, not just talk about building a.
Broad-based soar across very, very, very different groups with very different kind of priorities. But again, to come together and actually build. Power. And I talked to lots of different groups amongst the sort of so-called left, and there's such wide disparities between groups who have no structural wealth, basically, who don't have the billionaires to be able to fund groups to certain groups that are maybe just in the beginning stages of trying to figure out what does it look like for maybe, Arab American groups who are like, okay, like this has shown we need to build actual power to advocate for the causes that we believe in.
So I just, I think that consciousness is coming because things are so bad. Yeah. But but yeah, it's, we're literally in a, and then we haven't even gotten to AI and social media platforms and how actual facts and truths are, are, being warped. So how do you even build when we can't even agree.
On whether or not what we saw on our phones coming outta the White House is real, right? As well as media organizations that are not only caving, but are sort of both sides, seeing what's happening, minimizing, averting their eyes [00:38:00] altogether. So yeah, I think this is a time for a lot of people to be out there in the public sphere and be, truthers to an extent and to, we're going to have to do a lot of persuasion work and a lot of like, work on people's.
Minds And how do you organize around? Basically, like I said, for me, I think a lot of it comes down to I want a world that does the least amount of harm to people basically. And to, I think also one thing the w right has done is co-opted the language of freedom and liberty. Whereas I think for many of us who believe in humanist causes and that people should be actually free to not have to deal with systemic oppression.
I'm like, I think we are the freedom fighters. Actually, you shouldn't, it shouldn't matter whether you're trans, it shouldn't matter whether you're Latino, it shouldn't matter. You should be a free. Human being in this country. So I think, I think it's just, it's going to take a lot of us being kind of creative in how we frame what we're actually fighting for and about.
Democratic and other left leaders underestimate the power of religious community and knowing
SHEFFIELD: Yeah that's right. And. And, also being able to, and being willing to reach people where they are, so not just so obviously as you said, like with podcasts and things like that, definitely we need a lot more of those. and not so many of these, wasteful television political ads got a wasted like $750 million on those in the campaign, the Harris campaign did.
And there's other people who probably did too. So like, we need less of that because we, there's no return on that investment. All that money's flushed down the toilet now. Whereas
if somebody had paid some of that to start, to fund people who are podcasting or start new ones, like they would still be here, [00:40:00] we would still be getting value out of that.
So, but, also, there's. There is also, I think in the broader left, a, a lack of, of interest in trying to talk to people in a religious way as well and, and elevating people who have, a religious perspective that does align with with a liberationist at Ethos. We don't do that as much as we should, and, and that's a big blind spot because the majority of Americans are Christians.
And so if you are not willing to present voices that can speak to them in language that they are comfortable with and that resonates with them, then how are you going to get anywhere?
ATTIAH: Yeah, absolutely. And, and, and, and I, again, as a former evangelical, even though it's such a powerful group, and, and often they, they dominate the conversation about Christianity. They're not the only ones. There are and I, and I don't even want to say that this is just about. Christianity. There are obviously plenty of other religious groups that have been very involved in social justice and human rights in this country for a long time.
And thinking about the Jew, the Jewish community during, especially like the Civil Rights movement the Quakers, the gosh I, I know of a very influential imams who are here in Dallas who are obviously very vocal about social justice and human rights. And these are, these are people, these are churches.
These are institutions that again, are able to connect people and their politics to a bigger, a larger picture, something bigger than themselves. And as humans, that is just how we find meaning and significance. And that's what gives [00:42:00] people the sort of stamina, the spiritual stamina too. Not only fight for what they believe in, but to sustain it for a long time.
I, I, like I said before, with abortion and Christianity, when people believe that they're working on this sort of eternal project to to save people from, damnation and hell fire, that's a pretty powerful reason. Now, I know it's going to, what people are going to say and what's going to happen is, is people are like, oh, keep religion outta politics.
Keep spirituality outta politics. Particularly with the church and particularly with religious spaces that have not been welcoming to particularly L-G-B-T-Q people, all that is very, very, very much there. But there are religious groups explicitly, and again, I'm sitting here in Dallas, Texas, which actually has the largest L-G-B-T-Q mega church in the world.
And they have long been fighting for justice and human rights. Here, there are these groups that are like, this is not what we believe. Or even some that they're like, okay, we don't understand this, but we, believe in your right to be safe. Right? So I just think about that a lot, that whether it was Malcolm X and Islam or Martin Luther King Jr.
And of course himself being a pastor, I just, I am not sure how there would be a successful civil rights sort of counter to what's happening without people not only tapping into a deeper sort of spiritual well and com and community, but just the very basic pragmatic organizing power of religious communities.
These are groups that are able to amass people in person usually every week, right? To be able to come together. They're able to collect money and channel resources into [00:44:00] projects. They're, they have, and not only an infrastructure, but ties in their communities that political consultants flying in from Washington DC just don't have.
So I, I think about that a lot. And again, back to, I think there has been this disdain for religion. But in this country, this is what motivates people spirituality, spiritual groups working in concert with one another in order to advance their view of the world. So, we'll see. I'd, I'd be, I'm very, even though I'm no longer, I think.
Practicing question. I, I find myself as being from that culture, right? And I see the power of it. And to me, again, I'm just interested in how do we use power? And if that comes from places we may be uncomfortable with, are, we going to place our discomfort over progress or over building power? A lot of people have to answer that for themselves.
SHEFFIELD: Yeah, absolutely. Well, and, and, and it's also that, the other thing about churches is that they. They help build community of a place where you don't, so you don't have to be alone in
the people move now so much for their jobs. Like they, they're in a city and they don't know anybody.
They don't know their neighbors. They're neighbors are never home. They're never home. Like they just, there. It's, it's very difficult to meet people, you know at once. You're not in going to college anymore. And a friend, of course, the majority of Americans never went to college. and so like for them, those connections stopped when they went, stopped going to high school.
And so, like, so, so, so religions do provide that kind of anchoring in a lot of ways. And, and there's an interesting. [00:46:00] Dynamic with regard to black Americans, that for black Americans the stats have shown that black Americans who don't go to church, are actually more Republican.
And they're the only reli, they're the only demographic group where that's the case. Non-religious black Americans. and it's because the political culture of the black church by and large, does it, it, teaches the history of this is why we are voting, sup tending to support.
And it's not even necessarily to supporting the Democrats. It's, this is why we are suspicious of the Republicans because here is how they've hurt our community and history and you should know it. And like, so this, this shared space, this shared history that you get like. That's so much of the, I feel like the appeal of Trumpism for a lot of people is that they do get to feel like that they're part of something that they're part of a community that, you know, and like from to a lot of us on the outside that we look at that and they're like, who the hell would want to be a part of worshiping that turd?
The personal, cult magnetism of Donald Trump
ATTIAH: But you're onto something like, I mean, and I've, I, think I wrote about it on Facebook at, one point, I wish I had written a, sort of deeper essay. I have been, I've had the, is it a privilege and experience? I don't know, being in the room with Trump personally at this 0.3 times in my life and what people need to under.
have you ever met him or,
SHEFFIELD: I have been in the room with
him yet.
ATTIAH: You have. Okay, so maybe what I say won't be so surprising. This was my take when he met with the Washington Editorial Board and I was in that room, and Trump has a charisma, has a larger than life like, presence. Like this man is like a large human being.
So there's that. He [00:48:00] is tall. He just, he takes up space and I've, I saw him. Sort of, work the room. And again, he's, this is someone who's been in the sort of the public culture for a long, long, long, long time. Those in New York? Yes. We'll say we've always hated him. We've always known he's a crook, all of that.
But for those of us who grew up outside of New York, I grew up with Trump being a showman. Being on home alone. He was in Sex in the City, he was in music videos. And then I watched a lot of pro wrestling. Yeah. The Apprentice, and then of course The Apprentice. So he grew up, or I grew up with a, with Trump as a rich reality TV show like almost like this kind of brawler man with who represents, who still represents power.
Right.
SHEFFIELD: Well, and he had, a lot of crossover with hip hop too.
Like
ATTIAH: lot of crossover with hip hop.
SHEFFIELD: time
ATTIAH: Yeah. Limp Bizkit. I'm still thinking of Limp Biz's break stuff, video. He was in the break stuff. So he had,
SHEFFIELD: talked about him all the time.
ATTIAH: yeah, so he had, he built in a way, a sort of a profile a coalition of people from pro wrestling fans to to hip hop, to, sex in the city, which is supposed to be this feminist like cultural artifact.
Yeah. Anyway, point is, is like to see him then come in person, Hess, how to work people. He has a personal like magnetism and power that I feel a lot of people on the left don't understand. So I remember being in those rooms and thinking just the way that. He made people kind of like, he's funny also, he made people laugh like he made.
And I just remember thinking, and then he went into a bunch of lies and a bunch of like, nonsensical things and I was like, oh, here we go. But he charmed the room and I remember thinking like, [00:50:00] we are screwed if he has this level of, kind of hate him or love him, or, or at the very least you'll pay attention to him.
You can't not pay attention to him. I remember thinking that, and then the second time when I really was like, oh, this man's going to win, was seeing him at the Republican National Convention and the way that he moved that crowd speaking about, lock her up, speaking about how terrible America was and bringing the way that that crowd responded to him.
It was a religious thing to, it was they, it was almost like they had caught the Holy Spirit, what I used to see in the megachurches. And I remember coming back and seeing people just. Entranced and I was like, oh my gosh, this man is going to win. Because he has a, level of, and I know people hate to admit it, but he's been able to win twice, right.
He's been a, there's a reason why he does so many rallies like that moves people. And to your point, and I've seen this in people I know, even close to my own family, who Trump is both a hero and an outsider. And he does, he's both powerful and powerless, hated by the establishment, just like Jesus, right? So if you're a follower of Trump, you then by extension are also someone who is somehow, it seems twisted, but yes.
Marginalized and, I've seen how. People felt particularly in the beginning, that they couldn't be out and open with saying that they liked Trump. So it's almost like they would have like almost sort of secret chats with one another. Yeah.
He built,
SHEFFIELD: especially in black communities. For
ATTIAH: yeah. And so now it's just that people are more open about it, right?
Or are more open and comfortable. At the very beginning, if you remember, people were getting Disinvited left and right for liking Trump. Like you were kicked out of, family dinner [00:52:00] invite. So it's taboo. And now it's not so taboo, but there's, there's this, he's created a, a community, almost like a, a cult-like, sort of community where people who feel alienated by society in general gravitate towards a sense of belonging under him.
There's little need to reach out to right-wing leaders, but some of their followers can be persuaded
SHEFFIELD: For sure. Yeah. And like, and, I see there, there's a, that's a good parallel because when it comes to colts, other than Trump, people have a, more rational attitude in how to deal with them. So in other words. If you go and join Scientologists or some, one of these other groups, people, they don't necessarily impute moral failings or intellectual failings to you.
They think, oh, well there's something that person is vulnerable right now to this message. And the problem with dealing with the cult of Trump, I think for people who are trying to get people out of it, is that, that we miss that, that, we miss that personal, not necessarily, and obviously, Hillary Clinton was right, that many of them are deplorables.
We gotta say that, right? For sure. That's true. But it's still also the case, as you were saying, that a lot of people are not doing, are not supporting him for malicious reasons, like they. They, they have their own reasons that might not be terrible. They like, we, we might disagree with them. But you know, like, and, and so like, and I think that's another thing that you get as somebody who, who is from Texas, that you know you have from fans in your family.
You understand that there's, that there, these are not evil people. And I think that there's, well, not necessarily evil and like there's, there's, a problem with I think with a lot of center to Left people that they want to [00:54:00] com they want to compromise with the elites of Trumpism. Those people, you can't compromise with them because they are irredeemable, like they're the
ATTIAH: should have known. Oh, those are evil. Yeah.
SHEFFIELD: Yeah. Like, and, like, they don't get that the, outreach happen should happen at the, personal, voter citizen level. That's where we need to compromise the outreach, the, the talking and the care. Like, we don't, the, you don't gain anything by saying, oh, let's, let's understand Steven Miller and, maybe he's a good guy underneath it all.
And it's like, no, we don't have to do that. But we do have to think about the people that are tricked by him. And I
think that's the right emphasis, I think.
ATTIAH: Yeah, I think, there are, like the folks like Steven Miller who is Peter Thiel, Alan Car, like the ones who are actually, in my opinion, the ones who should be dragged out to debate floors. Those are the ones that are actively shaping the society and, and in these sort of dark rooms with, their very sociopathic mentalities.
And I think, that's why I, I, I don't, I've never loved the sort of hyperfocus on the kind of Trump voters in a diner sort of thing. Because even. Trump himself. Who is he listening to? Who is he influenced by? Who is, who is he being used as a vessel for? What are we being dis like, to an extent?
How is Trump, I won't say exactly being used as a distraction, but definitely being used to advance certain
SHEFFIELD: Yeah.
ATTIAH: Yeah. Like, he's not, he is not, he's a showman, but he's not this evil genius. We actually have evil geniuses in this society who are [00:56:00] able to sort of operate, I think largely outside of, of public view.
Those are the ones who do not deserve rest. Right. Like, and it's I find it strange that sort of there's this wanting to beat up on the tomato cans of, of like most, a lot of people like sort of low information voters. And we haven't even discussed like. Fox News and its dominance in the right wing, media, sphere and all that.
But that aside, to me, the people who are advancing a white supremacist society with no checks and balances, who actually have openly said they do not care for democracy, basically, who do, who have actively said, I mean, Vance has said this, that he believes that the endowments of the higher higher ed colleges or elite colleges are basically war chest for the enemy.
Like, this is how these people speak. And for some reason we are so hyper-focused on the people that it's in some ways like easier to beat up on than those powerful folks. Right? And part of it is, that's just how power works. It operates in the dark and operates in the shadows. And again, this is where the media should have, should be, should have been.
Better in directing our attention and our span on who these people, not only who these people are, but how do we oppose not only who these people are, but they have a lot of money and are using their, their money and their influence to literally buy candidates to buy media. So it's yeah, I mean, obviously the game of politics is you're supposed to persuade as many people as possible to give, to punch the ticket in your favor.
There is that, but the other realm of politics is the manufacturing of, of narratives and the advancing of, [00:58:00] worldviews and them deciding who's going to be the useful vessel for, that, for their business interests, all of that stuff. But that's just very hard to communicate very well to people who are in this society, especially.
Just trying to get by on multiple, sometimes a lot of times multiple jobs, the economy's not so great right now. How do you even think about convincing people to think about these sort of higher brow issues when they're just trying to, A, put food on the table and B, realizing that if they miss a day of work, it could lead them on the street?
Right. And to me, we are in an, in an age as well where power and money is so concentrated at the top and Americans in general are getting poor and more housing insecure, more food insecure. And yet we have so much access to information and yet literally in so many ways we are poor, particularly as middle, class, we are no longer my generation, especially and below, no longer thinking that the American dream is within.
Reach home ownership, marriage, kids. so to me it's also, I mean, I think, I think a lot of these things are deeply spiritual questions, but I think it's also about what is the narrative of America now? What is the story of America now, I am not sure that the Republicans have a compelling one right now.
Rather it's been, as you said before, obstruction and let's beat the liberals and let's be reactionary and claw back progress from, groups. But overall, what is the vision? What is the vision
SHEFFIELD: From any side,
ATTIAH: from any side.
Fascism isn't inevitable, but to stop it, you have to have a vision and a realization that power matters
SHEFFIELD: Yeah. That's, a great point. And, I [01:00:00] think the only way that vision can develop. Toward a anti-fascist direction is it, we have to reorient ourselves as well. And, that kind of goes back to what we were talking about at the very beginning of the recording here, that, not just about understanding power is, important and why you should use it, but also what do you want and,
ATTIAH: What do you want?
SHEFFIELD: And what you know, and like, and like I I, I think so much of the Trump second term is about kind of this sort of desire to emotionally blitz, cre, everyone who opposes them and to, make people think, oh, fascism is inevitable.
Totalitarianism, this is our fate in America. I'm just going to sit back and doom, scroll on whatever websites I'm using. And that's what they want you to think.
Um, and so like we have to figure out. What is watching the news a form of inter of entertainment. Like is that why you're, is that why you do it or is because you want to do something?
ATTIAH: Right. And it's, it's I have a lot of thoughts about this, but I mean, I think very generally it's, a profound shift that will need to happen. Within people themselves and, and within the society. I think a lot about how I, I come from a more like a sociology background. So like, I think a lot about how our country and our economy is very much a consumerist economy.
Very much on anytime something is going wrong for America, our leaders come out and tell us to go bye bye bye. And, and that we can somehow rely on others to create the things and we consume the things, which means it's very easy for activism and resistance to be packaged in such a way that it looks easy so that we can consume it on our phones.
Same with news, like, just speaking of someone from the from the information [01:02:00] pedaling business, which is journalism, but that part of the reason even that I wanted to go into teaching right now is that we're, people are consuming this information. Not necessarily being able to have the opportunity to figure out how to apply that knowledge in their own lives.
How to like I said, I think it's back to the drawing board with a lot of things. I think we all need reeducation in so many ways on, how we got here, but it's going to require Americans in general to get out of a very passive consumer consumptionist attitude towards how, towards a better society.
We're not going to buy our way out of this. Yes, we're going to need to pull and organize resources. That takes a lot of work. And I think for a long time, particularly the white majority in this country has relied upon. Black people to do the organizing and to do the labor has relied upon learning from the marginalized groups.
And now we're in a situation where like white folks are going to have to learn how to be in community and to organize and to probably abandon a lot of this cultural preferences for perfectionism, for well if I, I'm too scared. I, I don't want to get something wrong, so I'm not going to do anything at all.
I'd rather just sit on the sidelines 'cause I'm just going to let others speak and I'm like, you have to get out there and try. Right. Because so many, so many people we're facing, particularly for black people, but I think for, a lot of targeted groups, it's like a lot of people are literally having their livelihoods blown apart right now.
And we're seeing decades of losses ahead of us. So some people are just trying to survive, but the others who. Who really have the stam and the privilege. Like, it's not the time to crash out and wait for somebody else to do the [01:04:00] social justice, hard labor of it all. They'll have to, and, yeah, some of it'll be protesting fine.
Some of it will be civil de disobedience. Fine. Some of it will be, it'll have to come in a lot of forms and we don't all have to do the same thing. Not everyone can be a general, not everyone can be a pilot. Right. But but yeah, it's, going to take a profound in a different way of thinking of how we do things.
Again, it will come down to do you really believe, what is the story that you believe in America and what are you willing to do to make that a reality? Instead of yes, just sitting, on the internet or just. Doom scrolling. And people are doing the work. People are doing the work and have been, and have been on the grounds.
Again, being in Washington seeing neighborhoods rising up against ice actively driving folks out using lawsuits, lose, using whatever levers of power that they have. So it's the work, A lot of that work is being done. And I think that there's room for, or ace necessity for putting more of those stories out there.
'cause a lot of the stories out there are about how terrible things are, what the Trump administration has done. What they're doing is not to say that that's not important, but like there are stories of people who are fighting back and who are doing what they can to protect the marginalized. So.
And just examples from history and from around the world, like we need hope as well. We definitely, at the very least, need to see examples, embodied examples. Even well credit where credit is due if I'm, I'm remembering correctly Epstein list. The. Accusers, having very real, real fears of retribution and being sued into oblivion if they speak.
But I believe, and you may [01:06:00] correct me if, is it Marjorie Taylor Green and Thomas Massey maybe being willing to use their powers of, of speaking on the floor, basically like finding like a loophole in some of the procedural protocols to be able to still get that information out there. Yes, these are Republicans.
I do not. Eh, eh, But it was not even just a Republican. These are just people who I, but credit where credit is due. It's like, all right, they're being creative. This is what resistance could look like. Yeah. So, so yeah, I just am very I. It's going to, it's going to have some uncomfortable conversations.
What do we do with the Marjorie Taylor Greene, who all of a sudden is kind of criticizing Trump or saying the right things about Gaza? Now what do we do with figures like that who are like, oh, are they turning the page? Are they turning the corner? Or are, could they be allies on this issue? I don't know.
A lot of people will recoil at that, but these are the really difficult really difficult questions when you're also looking at like, okay, where does hope like come from?
SHEFFIELD: Yeah, Lot. There are lots of questions that need to be asked for sure. And we'll keep asking them. Well, so we're just over an hour here in the recording here.
So I try to we could do this a lot longer, obviously, clearly but we don't want to do that to the audience. So, but for people who want to keep up with your stuff, Karen what are your recommendations for them?
ATTIAH: Sure. You can also follow me on substack at karenattiah.substack.com. And my substack is called The Golden Hour. And I'm on all the social media platforms. First name Karen, last name Atiya. And for those of you who are interested in taking my class on race, media and international affairs, I will be hosting a [01:08:00] fall session beginning October 6th and October 8th.
So you'll be able to see me lecture and see me do my thing and be with a merry band of resistant students who are coming to. And we, we talk a lot about these very issues that we discussed today, right? When it comes to learning from history and how media has both helped and hurt resistance movements.
And it's just a good time. It's a great group of people. So would love to have folks sign up and come be in school with me.
SHEFFIELD: All right. Sounds good. All right. Thanks for being here.
ATTIAH: Thanks, Matthew. I appreciate it.
SHEFFIELD: All right, so that is the program for today.
I appreciate you joining us for the conversation. If you want to get more, you can go to Theory of Change show where we have the video, audio, and transcript of all the episodes, and we also have paid and free subscriptions as well. If you want to support the show and stay in touch, that would be great. We have an option on Patreon. Just go to patreon.com/discoverflux and you can go to flux.community for the Substack option as well. And if you're watching on YouTube, please do click the like and subscribe button to get notified whenever we post a new episode. That would be awesome. Stay in touch. I'll see you next time.
